The VegaNazis are coming for your dinner

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Toolsmith
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The VegaNazis are coming for your dinner

Yes, they're at it again. Your dinner is hurting the planet, so you are EVIL.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-da...

Of course, this ignores the fact that much of the Earth cannot support growing crops... but can support grazing. That's why humans started keeping livestock in the first place: to convert what could not be consumed (grass & weeds) into something that could be consumed.

Matt
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If that’s your argument you

If that’s your argument you lose every time.

Melvin Udall
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So how's your cud going,

So how's your cud going, muttzine?

Your apples are just as big as ever, if not riper.

Matt
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Wakey wakey, Melvin. Time to

Wakey wakey, Melvin. Time to drink your breakfast.

Bruce Libby
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If only if it wasn't so

If only if it wasn't so pleasurable,this is where one could miss pmconusa.

Gerald Weinand
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I guess Toolsmith coulnd't

I guess Toolsmith coulnd't make it to the second paragraph of the article, but reading all the way through, it is clear that no one is "coming for your [meat] dinner." Don't you folks ever tire of hyerbole?

The new research shows that without meat and dairy consumption, global farmland use could be reduced by more than 75% – an area equivalent to the US, China, European Union and Australia combined – and still feed the world.

Melvin Udall
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Excuse me???

Excuse me???

And yes, I do tire of hyperbole. It's tough and usually served unappealingly at liberal group dinners. Most of it goes in the trash when plates are cleaned up.

Toolsmith
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I'm hoping that's sarcasm

I'm hoping that's sarcasm from Gerald, since the paragraph he's plucked from the chaff makes the point clear.

The article is pushing the idea that all meat & milk production is wasteful and thus violates the new liberal morality.

Northarrow
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nt doing that. No big deal.

Toolsmith... where do you get the claimed “new liberal morality” from that?

As a commenter said in the article, “Given the global obesity crisis, changing diets – eating less livestock produce and more vegetables and fruit – has the potential to make both us and the planet healthier”. All we need to look at is our near obese President, who is quite fond of Mac quarter pounders and steak (well done - can you imagine?). On orders from his medical team, he is apparently scaled back on that good stuff in favor of more healthy options.

Are his medical handlers succumbing to yet another liberal conspiracy? Should Ronald MacDonald storm the White House and save Trump? The article discusses a research finding, that’s all. The “new liberal morality” conclusion is ridiculous.

Toolsmith
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No, I'm serious. This is not

No, I'm serious. This is not in a vacuum. The implications are clear enough (why the statement comparing total area?), the research biased enough (no proof that the total area could even be used that way) , the goal stated clearly enough (everything would be better if every meat & dairy eater would just give it up). What part of the deliberate pressure to conform isn't clear?

Veganism GOOD, everything else BAD. New morality, plain & simple.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/animals/using/eating_1.shtml

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2077750,00.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/11/abuse-animals-meat...

Northarrow
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I don’t get it. Lot’s of

I don’t get it. Lot’s of people (ever hear of PETA) have an objection to eating meat. So what? It’s always been that way.

I will give up my rib-eye (medium rare) when you take it from my cold, dead hands. But I’m not too concerned it will ever get to that. Stand tall and proud and have that quarter-pounder Toolsmith, and if the no-meat zealots block the drive through window, I’ll fight right along side you. Being a carnivore spans political ideology.

Bruce Libby
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Here ,Here.

Here ,Here.
Now one can see why so many of those threads are lacking responses.

Toolsmith
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It hasn't always been that

It hasn't always been that way. There have always been those who objected, choosing another path. the Janes, for example, have been around for a very long time. The insistence that we all should be vegan is more recent, and growing louder.

But it's nice to know I wouldn't be the only holdout.

Mainelion
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The obesity epidemic has more

The obesity epidemic has more to do with lack of activity than it does with eating meat. Once again the leftists know what's best for us and they're going to give it to us good and hard.

Toolsmith
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Sure they're not... each new

Sure they're not... each new article is more strident than the last.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/08/save-planet-meat-d...

"Free Range" comes in for special criticism for being less efficient. Ironic, that, since efficient production is also considered bad.
Even small farming is attacked. Now the only solution described as acceptable is vegan from large efficient farms with your little acre left to go wild for the wildlife.

Problem with all this is that much of the world, even the new world, was managed land... even when it was a forest. Recent scholarship has revealed that much of North America's forest land was managed with periodic burns just as the Aboriginal culture practices in Australia. This only stopped when introduced diseases decimated the native population. The "pristine" forests choked with undergrowth found by the settlers from Europe were only recently overgrown. More recent discoveries, in that past 2 years, have revealed that the Amazon basin was managed forest too. So all this gibberish about letting everything go wild like it used to be is not based in reality at all. It is also true that much of this land was inhabited by large herbivores before any humans even got here - with results very similar to what domestic animals produce. And much is also land that could not be used for crops anyway.

anonymous_coward
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@Mainelion: "The obesity

@Mainelion: "The obesity epidemic has more to do with lack of activity than it does with eating meat. Once again the leftists know what's best for us and they're going to give it to us good and hard."

I find this hard to believe, as it's pretty well established that if you want to lose weight, 80% of the effort is diet.

The obesity epidemic is more related to increasing consumption of processed sugar and grains (If anything, more meat consumption would be better).

Toolsmith
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What is established is that

What is established is that 50+ years of diets have produced ZERO results. Look around. No diets seem to work.

I know a few who succeeded with Atkins (take that, vegans), as long as they stayed on it. Not many did stay on it. Even those who got surgical procedures failed in the end. Only consistent increase in activity seems to work long term. That's certainly been the case for me.

Only other method? Smoking. Definitely seems to keep weight down. Nasty side effects tho.

Ugenetoo
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There is only one way to lose

There is only one way to lose weight.
Don't consume as many calories as your body's output requires.

expat
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Are you speaking about your

Toolsmith, are you speaking about your own struggles (I kind of imagine you with multiple chins and a paunch so huge you can't see your own genitals) or making an unfounded, unsubstantiated and ignorant sweeping generalization that applies to all of humanity? I suspect it is both.

Melvin Udall
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In many cases, metabolism

In many cases, metabolism makes a sharp change in middle age, and the eating habits that once served you well can suddenly fail you, even when you back off some.

It's like eyesight.....your body changes....

Toolsmith
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Expat? What generalization?

Expat? What generalization? Haven't seen any health data lately? It's well established the most people, even kids, are packing on the pounds in spite of the many many diets around.

Increasing activity helps me avoid the problem. Still in the right weight range with no high BP, which is rare these days. I'm only talking regular walking too, not heavy exercise. I've never been a heavy meat eater, but I've always had meat of some kind (poultry, fish, beef, pork, shellfish) with virtually every meal.

Your response seems way too strident for the statement I made. It was not unfounded, is well substantiated, and certainly cognizant of the facts. So why the attempted smackdown? Even an included ad hominem attack for good measure.

What prompted such an over-the-top response?

Ugenetoo
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Toolsmith I'd suspect TDS.

Toolsmith

I'd suspect TDS.

expat
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What is established is that

What is established is that 50+ years of diets have produced ZERO results.

Really, zero results? You know, many diets are based on calorie reduction. You are saying they never work and have provided no evidence (not even your usual link to an obscure blogger or opinion piece as "proof"). What you believe and what is true are two very different things as evidenced by the plethora of absurd hyperbolic and conspiracy-laden threads you start.

Toolsmith
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I'm so sorry for these

I'm so sorry for these internet phobes who somehow manage to post here, but cannot do a simple Google for themselves. Amazing.

At CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html

In the News
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/america-s-obesity-epidemic-hi...

At NIH (with a graph of change over time)
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweigh...

At a diet website (with 4 maps showing obesity change over decades)
https://www.dietdoctor.com/the-american-obesity-epidemic-reaches-a-new-r...

And all you really had to do is Open Your Eyes. They're all around you, and there are far more than ever.

Bruce Libby
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Guess what .you just made

Guess what .you just made expats' point !

Absolute way to attract believers to your threads ,just label them and deride them for not falling
for your threads , that were described above fairly accurately. By expat no less.

Toolsmith
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Exactly WHAT do you think is

Exactly WHAT do you think is not justified? You don't have to believe ME, those reports are from the CDC, NIH, and other sources.

And you could easily find them yourself.

You don't like my posts? Ignore them. That's been your advice, hasn't it?

Toolsmith
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Back on topic... do the fake

Back on topic... do the fake meat burgers really taste like they claim? I have to say I haven't had one that did. Are the new ones better?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/12/fake-meat-plant-ba...

Ugenetoo
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They ain't bad if you add

They ain't bad if you add enough bacon.

Toolsmith
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And the VegaNazi march

And the VegaNazi march continues... into your workplace. Now, Environmentalism is being added to the New Liberal Morality.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/13/wework-meat-events-e...

McKelvey said the company was eliminating meat for environmental reasons. “New research indicates that avoiding meat is one of the biggest things an individual can do to reduce their personal environmental impact, even more than switching to a hybrid car.”

At least this next one admits that vegan cheese is awful...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jul/19/can-ditching-meat-a...

If you start with ethics (one friend, a vegan and a philosopher, used to say: “I wouldn’t kick a cat to death just because I enjoyed it”), pleasure becomes irrelevant: nothing tastes as good as moral feels.

Toolsmith
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This piece confirms an

This piece confirms an obesity epidemic from other sources, and then blames the epidemic on predatory marketing (comparing it to tobacco marketing).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/15/age-of-obesity-sha...

And, of course, fat shaming gets some blame too.

Is this valid? Maybe it's part of it, but I still insist that personal choices are a key component. Fat shaming or not, I disagree with anything that casts people as helpless childlike victims *again*...

Tom C
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It's globalist social

It's globalist social engineering. Our corporate masters want to give us less, and make us pay the same, or more.

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