Personally, I'm willing to bet that the LE "professionals" were going to kill anyone who exited that vehicle, regardless of his/her actions. I would even go so far as to predict that had he been knocked unconscious by hitting the steering wheel, he would also have been killed because police could not "see his hands" (yes it's been done before)(in Houston, Texas).
He almost hit a Leo with his car which in other cases has been found to be grounds for using deadly force..
The LEO jumped in the snow bank in front of the truck at the last second to make the case of using deadly force. Can't you even watch a video with a subjective view. How many knee pads have you two worn out in your life?
You have to wonder how that video would be interpreted if LaVoy Finicum was of African decent.
That is a good point Murphy, I'd suspect the government supporters would be pointing out that he ran the initial stop, even though several, I'd assume minutes were deleted from the FBI "raw" footage as Ryan Payne was arrested and handcuffed from the finicum pickup. Why would we want to see that?
But we want to see Finicum driving off from the initial stop, speeding away as he comes around the corner, he puts his brakes on, continually and then avoids a collision with the road block going into the snow bank and then a LEO leaps from the roadway into the snow in front of the pickup, barely getting hit and buried somewhat in snow, as other officers descend on the snow bound truck.
I'd suspect that Obama might say if I had a brother who owned a ranch he would look exactly like Lavoy and of course we would have the chorus of right wingers saying they should have nuked the bastard at the compound.
How many times do we need to hear the chorus from the various factions, while they can't even look at the video of the day.
Rebecca at least you post to Toms' shooting thread.
"I bet","assume",believe all nice things to show support for the cause.
After all the narrative goes to crap if one admits it was justified .
That would take the shine off from martyrdom wouldn't it ?
I simply find it strange that the ONLY video to be shown at this point is a silent film taken from a helicopter. Somehow I do not believe that the officers did not have microphones and earbuds or that all the conversations weer not taped at a remote listening post for further review. Neither do I believe that any officer was in dire threat since all were wearing body armor. If you didn't recognize it then look again. I am a firm believer in the credo "Do not fire unless fired upon". This alone would prevent many deaths at the hands of the police.
The lack of audio which would confirm or prove false the impression that the man grabbed at his first wound which the LE personnel are claiming was an attempt at drawing a firearm. Officers also have body cams in such situations. Where are the pictures? Were these not Federal officers? Can't really claim lack of funding so where are the confirming audio and videos. Or, are we waiting for them to be manufactured? Just saying.
They were also OSP ,who did the shooting.
They were or there were.....? There are always too many unanswered questions whenever something like this happens. It's the unanswered questions that give LE a bad image. When the LE community gives itself a pass it only enhances the distrust in LE. This in and of itself is a very bad result.
While it's flattering to be compared to Bruce, we really are nothing alike. His responses, though garbled, express his opinions, many of which are quite reasonable once they are deciphered. I got no dog in any of these fights. I simply come here to disparage and malign just because.
None of the "occupy" people in New York were shot by police. They were on private property. The ambush in Oregon was deliberate deadly force against a citizen who had expressed views that the authorities did not like. Many public servants across our country would not participate in such actions because of the oaths they took to support and defend our Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Here is an interview with an experienced SWAT team member about the ambush in Oregon. He makes the same points that I made early in this thread.
There are many like the ex marine in the first video post.
He turned himself in at home, not in Oregon. doing a Bellows .
Oh,the experienced SWAT teams in his agency of course announce and give occupants huge amounts of time to
answer the door. Particularly with potentially/known armed people who have fled attempt to be taken into custody.
statement from Finicum family
Oregon Statute Use of Force.
ORS: 161.235 Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape. Except as provided in ORS 161.239, a peace officer is justified in using physical force upon another person only when and to the extent that the peace officer reasonably believes it necessary:
(1) To make an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person unless the peace officer knows that the arrest is unlawful; or (2) For self-defense or to defend a third person from what the peace officer reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of physical force while making or attempting to make an arrest or while preventing or attempting to prevent an escape.
161.239 Use of deadly physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape. (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.235, a peace officer may use deadly physical force only when the peace officer reasonably believes that:
(a) The crime committed by the person was a felony or an attempt to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or (b) The crime committed by the person was kidnapping, arson, escape in the first degree, burglary in the first degree or any attempt to commit such a crime; or (c) Regardless of the particular offense which is the subject of the arrest or attempted escape, the use of deadly physical force is necessary to defend the peace officer or another person from the use or threatened imminent use of deadly physical force; or
(d) The crime committed by the person was a felony or an attempt to commit a felony and under the totality of the circumstances existing at the time and place, the use of such force is necessary; or (e) The officer's life or personal safety is endangered in the particular circumstances involved. (2) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section constitutes justification for reckless or criminally negligent conduct by a peace officer amounting to an offense against or with respect to innocent persons whom the peace officer is not seeking to arrest or retain in custody.
161.245 "Reasonable belief" described; status of unlawful arrest.
(1) For the purposes of ORS 161.235 and 161.239, a reasonable belief that a person has committed an offense means a reasonable belief in facts or circumstances which if true would in law constitute an offense. If the believed facts or circumstances would not in law constitute an offense, an erroneous though not unreasonable belief that the law is otherwise does not render justifiable the use of force to make an arrest or to prevent an escape from custody. (2) A peace officer who is making an arrest is justified in using the physical force prescribed in ORS 161.235 and 161.239 unless the arrest is unlawful and is known by the officer to be unlawful.
OMG. Rebecca opines that the police should wait until someone shoots at them before shooting back - assuming they're not dead by then. Brilliant!!
Roger, the Wall Street Occupiers were cleared out without incident. They didn't show up armed and vow that the "government" would not be allowed to remove them. They were not perceived to be a threat to others. That made all the difference in the response by politicians and law enforcement. When a self-proclaimed militia takes over government property, it's not considered a peaceful protest by any means and will elicit the kind of response that it received. Law enforcement was perfectly willing to take Bundy and the others into custody without incident or gunfire, which is exactly what they did. It appears they had no desire to shoot anyone if it could be avoided. Finicum forced their hand.
I remind you of post #207 .
Regardless of any other argument that is all that matters and why.
OMG. David supports the police opening fire and possibly killing innocent citizens minding their own business. What was the actual count David, 63 rounds fired into the back of a pickup truck in California because the officers THOUGHT it looked something like the vehicle they were looking for. Two people shot in the back through the back of the truck. They had NEVER threatened anyone and did not have a firearm. Just lucky they lived. Cost the taxpayers 4.3 million just to settle (at least I think that was the settlement) and the prosecutor proclaimed that the police acted justifiably? YEAH RIGHT. This is what you're supporting.
I just do not believe the depth of the BS used to let these criminal officers off the hook.
Stay on point we are in Oregon not California.
Toms' thread has A GREAT CALIFORNIA SECTION.
"Listen up--Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and everybody else. Most police shootings can be avoided. It comes down to respect for authority and obedience. If a police officer tells you to stop, you stop. If a police officer tells you to put your hands in the air, you put your hands in the air. If a police officer tells you to lay down face first with your hands behind your back, you lay down face first with your hands behind your back. It’s as simple as that. Even if you think the police officer is wrong—YOU OBEY. Parents, teach your children to respect and obey those in authority. Mr. President, this is a message our nation needs to hear, and they need to hear it from you. Some of the unnecessary shootings we have seen recently might have been avoided. The Bible says to submit to your leaders and those in authority “because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account.”" - Franklin Graham
I remind people, Alexander Solzhenitsyn told of his bare survival of the same murderous governmental oppression:
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
Read "One Second After". It is a realistic depiction of what could happen after an EMP. Isolated rural communities will fare bet. DenseIy populated cities will be hell on earth. The forward was written by Newt Gingrich.
One gave his life for his view of freedom,
the others did a Bellows.
Well this is fun. Mike G talks about knee pads and tries to compare the US with Stalinist Russia. Rebecca takes my opinion that the police shouldn't be required to be shot at before they can return fire and turns it into a rant about my supposed support for rogue police shooting innocent people. Apparently, that's what passes for informed discussion on AMG - at least in their minds.
Meanwhile Roger brings up a novel (fiction) about Electro Magnetic Pulse weapons. That's a fascinating topic that is also the subject of "Lights Out" by Ted Koppel, a non-fiction discussion of the topic. And Roger is right. The impact on urban areas would be devastating. But I don't have a clue what it has to do with the standoff in Oregon.
No word from the Refuge, and the story has all but disappeared from the media. The final four have been indicted, so they'll be arrested when this is over unless they decide to shoot it out. Sandhill cranes attract birders to the area, and they'll be arriving this month. I suppose if the occupiers get hungry enough they could bag a few for dinner - even if it's against the law. What the heck at this point, I suppose.
At this point, "What difference does it make?"
One doing the Bellows,one who was a martyr for the cause ( who committed suicide by cop) !
Who owned the center afterwards ?
Who wanted ownership/control of land to change ?
There is difference !
Note the painting of George Washington kneeling in prayer on the wall at LaVoy Finicum's office. LaVoy''s funeral is today. In fact it is happening as I write this. Here is the announcement:
Rest In Peace LaVoy
by Jason Van Tatenhove
(NOTE: Jason Van Tatenhove, SGM Joseph Santoro, and Jordan Page, are attending LaVoy Finicum's funeral today):
Today we a bury one of our best...A true friend and hero to the cause of Liberty. A family man, loving husband, father, friend, mentor, man of faith, a true American Patriot. Why is it always the best among us that seem to be taken from us first?
We vow to continue on with LaVoy's legacy; his sacrifice will not be in vain.
LaVoy at Bundy Ranch, April 12, 2014
The funeral services for LaVoy will be held today in Kanab, Ut at the Kabab Stake Center, 1435 S. McAlester dr., Kanab UT
Viewing is from 11- 2 pm funeral services starts at 2:30 pm.
There will be a fundraising memorial concert at the Kanab Middle School, 690 South Cowboy Way in Kanab that starts at 5:30 pm. 100% of the donations raised go directly to the Finicum family.
Jordan Page and members of Finicum family will be performing at this fund raising event.
Please keep the family in your thoughts and prayers today. Please enjoy this video of LaVoy's daughters singing "Freedom's Cry". (Give it a few seconds to load.)
Editor's Note: Please go to this article at Oath Keepers' national website (link below) to view a very important video by LaVoy Finicum. Jason's article, with videos, is here --
I guess you didn't make the connection between the two opposing view points in my post. The one from the Christian nut who thinks we need to OBEY our masters as it is writ in the Bible and the other from a soviet dissident who witnessed the kowtow of his fellow Russians.
As far as the kneepads go, I'll stand to that, the LEO Military worship in this country , is disturbing and is on a par with many fledgling Fascist countries throughout history, now whether it be commie or fascist, the difference means little to the dead or where this country the US is headed.
If you can't see the shit that has gone down, what can I say. I expect little from Bruce or the other Neocons on AMG, I've talked to them for 15 years and they have always been right in THEIR mind. BUT the proof is in the pudding and the taste is all it is and after 15 years the pudding tastes like shit.
PS I've noticed that what ever Psychopath sits in the White House that the King's soldiers will always obey them religiously and of course the King's faithful follower's with their hands out or a JOB
So Mike are you not right in your mind ?
Explain to us why several of the protesters "submitted to authority " in Oregon and one in Arizona
and one didn't . Were they "christian nuts" ?
By the way Alexander went back to Russia he couldn't deal with our freedom.
I never had much respect for Mormons, But I'm just a non-practicing Catholic.
The two different views are important in my post, they show how OBEYING may lead to GULAG. I can't disagree with Lutson's initial post on this, the Idiots, nor can I at this point know whether the shoot was justified.
I will side with those that question authority because mostly Americans do not do so, and from what I've seen and looking at the 800 lb gorilla they better start.
PS Russians love their mother, just as we do : )
"... the painting of George Washington kneeling in prayer..."
Which is every bit as apocryphal as Parson Weem's tale of the cherry tree.
Not to mention totally irrelevant to the (fairly straggly) thread at hand.
Then lets stretch this scraggly thread out straight. Look who is in charge of the debacle in Oregon:
People came from all over our nation to LeVon Finicum's funeral.
How many went Lavoy Finicums ?